The Fourth of July

[Iskatehard]

I went to a firework show earlier tonight... It was really nice, I have to say. But there was a big set up with bands and shit, and people giving speeches and such..

As you can guess, it all had a theme.. America! But I have to admit.. It really bothered me personally.

Don't get me wrong, I love America. It's my fucking home!

But I will not pledge to it's name. And that was a problem with my family tonight.

There was a lot of words being said to the audience from people with microphones. All about how America is the best, and we should live and die by it.. But, I think that's wrong.

I hate it. Sometimes I think separate nations are a simple product of power hungry individuals with a high sense of greed. Why, for the love of all, do we need to divide! It's a barrier, it is. I swear it is.

I can't pledge to a country because it doesn't make sense. However, the one thing I WILL pledge to is humanity. Humans. That's where the respect should go. Not to some fucking country, because I don't feel it makes sense.

I don't know.. There is a long history with people, I know.. But separate nations, it's just wrong. And we should use a nation to define ourselves, or other people. We're of nationality last.. We're humans first, though. And that's what is more important.


And while it's unrelated to above.. I was a bit weirded out at the handful of hours of people ranting about how amazing and perfect America was, and it deserves utmost respect... And then as we're leaving, we see trash littering everyfuckingwhere...

[Son of a bitch]

It's human nature, kinda like a "territories" thing like back in older times. Or tribes. It's all to create a bond. But this probably doesn't mean much coming from me because I love this country, not necessarily saying it's the best though, considering I've never left it.

[kickflip4]

I'd pledge alligance to my country a lot quicker then I would humanity as a whole. You act like countries themselves seperate humans, but I feel really it's humans themselves that seperate countries.

[HUnGary_SAmUraI]

countries are the shit, we need a divide to bring us together

I love the competition, and the variety and huge divide between people is the only thing that makes a shit life interesting


but yea, I stand and take my hat off and shit because people gave so much for others and the country but I never pledge or anything,

i'm not like a "no i'll never do it fuck america" just I do'nt know, I'm not into that

[I'M_NOOBTASTIC]

I put on an Italian soccer jersey today and didn't realize it until about 3 o'clock.

[popwar sk8er]

I'd pledge alligance to my country a lot quicker then I would humanity as a whole. You act like countries themselves seperate humans, but I feel really it's humans themselves that seperate countries.

exactly what i was thinking.would posi again.

america does have its pros and cons but so does every country.i do agree that a lot of people in the media project this sort of ignorance about us,and thats wrong. patriotism is one thing,thinking that our country is better than any other is something completely different.

happy fourth of july everybody.

[Iskatehard]

I'd pledge alligance to my country a lot quicker then I would humanity as a whole. You act like countries themselves seperate humans, but I feel really it's humans themselves that seperate countries.

What? I don't quite understand that. How is it countries don't separate us, anyway?

It's pretty safe to say they do, and we're constantly hearing examples of it in news and media reports..


And yeah, I'll do the whole stand and take my hat off.. Just because it's out of respect, and I think we all do owe proper respect to those who've contributed in making our home what it is. But all in all, it's a bit odd that it's like that, I still believe.

Edit-

And the reason you can believe that countries separate humans is thanks to so many traditions of today. 4th of July, for example.

It's really pointless to say somebody who walks on one piece of land is better than somebody that walks on another. And I can't understand why people in any specific country deserve more or are "better" because of their home.

You could almost look at it as logical as somebody walking around a street shouting "I live in a brick hose, fuck yeah. My house is better than yours, and I'm better than you!" Doesn't make much sense on it's own, does it?

[popwar sk8er]

What? I don't quite understand that. How is it countries don't separate us, anyway?

It's pretty safe to say they do, and we're constantly hearing examples of it in news and media reports..


And yeah, I'll do the whole stand and take my hat off.. Just because it's out of respect, and I think we all do owe proper respect to those who've contributed in making our home what it is. But all in all, it's a bit odd that it's like that, I still believe.

Edit-

And the reason you can believe that countries separate humans is thanks to so many traditions of today. 4th of July, for example.

It's really pointless to say somebody who walks on one piece of land is better than somebody that walks on another. And I can't understand why people in any specific country deserve more or are "better" because of their home.

You could almost look at it as logical as somebody walking around a street shouting "I live in a brick hose, fuck yeah. My house is better than yours, and I'm better than you!" Doesn't make much sense on it's own, does it?

its a conflict of ideas that separates us not regional boundaries.we could never operate as one united globe because of what was discussed in your other thread,its human nature to have differences and fight.countries aren't just tittled as ''land'' because we always feel the need to form ''groups'' ''tribes'' ''nations'' whatever it may be called its the same thing.

[daytona]

Maybe it's just around here, but I've seen a lot of people talk shit about America saying how bad it is and then today, they're all like, "AMERICA!!! YEAAAH AMERICA!!" And I don't get why they do this.

[Big&Beautiful]

Patriotism doesn't lead to divide in my opinion. I look at patriotism, not as some superiority complex, but as gratefulness. I feel that many of us have much to be thankful for. Whether it be the fact that we live in a free society or a country that is not constantly facing famine or internal terrorism. So with that being said, I have no problem in pledging my allegiance.

[Iskatehard]

Patriotism doesn't lead to divide in my opinion. I look at patriotism, not as some superiority complex, but as gratefulness. I feel that many of us have much to be thankful for. Whether it be the fact that we live in a free society or a country that is not constantly facing famine or internal terrorism. So with that being said, I have no problem in pledging my allegiance.

Very well said, I have to say. I really see what you mean.

But it seems odd to pledge it to a specific country. Just like it'd be weird to pledge it to a specific state, or county, or road you live on..

Ultimately, this entire world is our home. I think that should be embraced over the specific country.

But I can understand some good aspects in taking pride in a country.. And I say, I do it myself. I love this country, and I think it's absolutely amazing. But I'd not say it's better than another one, however.

There are some practical uses in countries, I suppose I'd say. And some things come from it, such as healthy competition. And that's great.

But you're completely right.. It's not so much about patriotism, but a superiority complex. I'm honestly surprised at some of the responses given here, when in the thread concerning recognition based on race, most people seemed very against labeling in this state.

I don't see why it's bad to take pride in a race, but it's okay to take pride in a specific home..

But I have to say, yeah, you're right, it's more a superiority complex than anything else..



Really.. I just hate it when we take fine details like place and race and consider them first and foremost. I haven't a problem with somebody who wants to acknowledge and respect where they are. But I have to say, when doing so seems to prevent you from acknowledging humans as a whole, and the fact in all we all share the same home, then that's really too bad, I think.

But yeah, to take pride in something doesn't mean you have to say it's better... To say it's "better" seems to make it seem so empty in so many ways.. I just don't think to be so blind in that sense will allow anybody to really take "pride".. At least, not in terms of what I consider "pride".

To take pride you have to acknowledge both the good and bad both, respectively. And you have to understand what it's a part of.. It really seems people just don't.

edit-

And concerning the reference you made to famine and the like.. I personally would hate to be so thankful that I have such great living conditions and leave it at that. Yeah, they're good, and I appreciate it.. But, I don't think it's right that not everywhere is without said conditions.. So it is kind of odd to celebrate it. But eh, I'm probably looking at it in the wrong way.

[salvemaster]

...I feel that many of us have much to be thankful for. Whether it be the fact that we live in a free society or a country that is not constantly facing famine or internal terrorism. So with that being said, I have no problem in pledging my allegiance.


Honestly, and most of you will probably disagree with me, but i don't think we should feel at all privileged, or in anyway better than any other country, by our 'free society' at all. Not even a little.

Fuck it, its a god damn chaste principal of our natural human rights that every fucking person be free from tyranny, from hatred, from prejudice and from any form of governmental censorship. If living in a nation that will somewhat (but does its best to) conserve these rights entitles us to pledge our allegiance and lives to it and to be ever-grateful for it, then i don't think this is the type of nation that is really vouching for those human rights.

What we should pledge our allegiance to is, like iskatehard said, humanity. We are a people united first by our ability to love each other, second by our ability to hate each other, but never by the ability of any one thing to divide us; and that is basic human nature, you can quote me on that.

I cannot respect a man living in necessitous shelter whose only thoughts are of how great he is to have such a basic dwelling while across the street a man sleeps in the rain and bitter cold.

I cannot respect a nation that marvels only at its childish ability to abide by essential human rights while on the other side of the world, women and children are denied the very right to live.

It's ridiculous. We have nothing to be thankful for, only to give wholly our respect to the men and women who fought relentlessly before us to obtain these rights that they shouldn't have had to fight to obtain in the first place. I'm not bashing our forefathers or any freedom fighter or any soldier in any war, i'm bashing that we should, for even a second, celebrate our wealth as a nation.

[Iskatehard]

For sure man. Solid.

It really doesn't make sense to be happy we have it solely. Because really.. Everybody should have reasonable conditions..

Now.. I'm not saying our conditions are perfect.. And I am not saying it's a standard to use to compare the rest of the world to.. But it's certainly pretty damn good.. While we should appreciate that, we shouldn't be ready to celebrate it until we all have it.

[salvemaster]

For sure man. Solid.

It really doesn't make sense to be happy we have it solely. Because really.. Everybody should have reasonable conditions..

Now.. I'm not saying our conditions are perfect.. And I am not saying it's a standard to use to compare the rest of the world to.. But it's certainly pretty damn good.. While we should appreciate that, we shouldn't be ready to celebrate it until we all have it.


Precisely. The day the world lives wholly in peace and solely under the government of each individuals moral compass is the day we set off fireworks.

[Skateselect]

Precisely. The day the world lives wholly in peace and solely under the government of each individuals moral compass is the day we set off fireworks.
and, ironically enough, all the fireworks we light will most likely be made in china

[Iskatehard]

Precisely. The day the world lives wholly in peace and solely under the government of each individuals moral compass is the day we set off fireworks.

That would be amazing, and certainly worth a lot of celebration.. But shit, the way things are.. It's never going to happen, I fear.

So.. There are always going to be violence between nations and shit, and that sucks in quite a few ways.. But still, even if they had decent living conditions, it'd be pretty nice still..

SHIT, there are still a lot of places in America that needs better conditions >.>' (I think)



Annddd.. I might add.. And I honestly feel bad for believing this.. But I think it would be pretty scary to wake up one day and hear reports of all the governments coming to terms with each other and saying it was complete peace.. But maybe I just think bad, and I'd think that makes some more vulnerable for attack and shit..

[salvemaster]

That is true, and that's what i fear as well.

When you look at humanity from an animalistic point of view, i suppose morality is really such a burden. If we were all just fucking lions or something, then we would just eat each other and there would be no problem because fuck it, we're lions it's what we do.

But the fact that we have the moral obligation to not eat each other like lions has led to (ironically) hatred, prejudice, war, nuclear explosions, and domesticated animals.

But yeah i getya about the whole sudden peace thing. I'd be a little scared too. But it's never gonna happen anyways so i guess it doesn't really do any good thinking about it.

[Skateselect]

^isnt that what happened in the matrix lol? they achieved peace, then basically the apocalypse happened

[Iskatehard]

I swear this reminds me of that thought I've had a few times...

Of aliens just sitting in some ship observing us from far, far away.. And wondering why we play off things like "morals" and emotions so much.. And thinking about how it seems to be the main barrier to us just simply living. And thinking "Shit, don't they know it'll be the end of them all? It just doesn't make sense"

[Viva_La_Fiesta]

I also agree that we should pledge to humanity and not one country, and that we shouldn't really celebrate until everyone is all good.

But I don't think that every nation coming to terms would be scary. I mean, if it happened tommorow, out of the blue, that would be scary. That would mean something's about to happen, I think. Like, the top agents of the governments realized somehow the world was gonna end, and they needed to get together to stop it. That's really the only reason I can see for governments uniting right now.

But, I do think eventually we need to unite into one Earth. Just one united humanity would solve so many problems. I know that people say it's impossible because of cultural differences and human nature, and it is right now at this moment. This is because we are not mature enough as a race yet to handle it. We haven't reached the point where we can really throw away our sub-concsious hatred for certain groups and love for others, and just truly accept everyone. I mean, I'm sure that most of you aren't racists or sexists, or biased in any way like this. I try as hard as I can not to be. But you have to admit it, if you saw a white woman just walk away from her suitcase at an airport, you would be much less nervous about it compared to if a Middle-Eastern looking man with a stern look on his face did the same thing.
But, if you took a man from the period of the Middle Ages, with the bubonic plague spreading rapidly, constant warfare occuring almost everywhere, and disagreeing with the Catholic Church meant possibly death, and asked him what the world today would be like, he would probably get it very wrong. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if he thought humanity would end centuries before the year 2000. We have come so suprisingly far since then, as far as becoming a more learned, tolerant, and generally better society goes. So, I don't see why the future can't hold some positive suprises for us as a race.

[Snake]

Fuck. We have our shit together to a degree. I wish we were all united and shit, but thinking that that would work is delusional. Too many crazy people in the world who would try to get a foothold and take over. Countries may have their problems, but its the best way to do shit right now. It allows us to stay organize and deal with threats and crisis.

Factions always end up forming, even if we "united" all of humanity, different groups would form and take control, and they would essentially end up being the same as countries.

And I don't really see the big problem with countries. Saying that individual countries are stupid is like saying that separate basketball teams are stupid. They should all just form into one big happy basketball family. Fuck that shit. Competitions and conflict kick ass, it would be boring as fuck if there were no desire to be the best team, to be better than everyone else. And I don't see anything bad that can come with trying to make the USA the best country in the world.

[theonlysun81]

the fourth of July should not be a celebration of America. It should be a celebration of the revolutionary spirit that created America.

[Viva_La_Fiesta]

the fourth of July should not be a celebration of America. It should be a celebration of the revolutionary spirit that created America.

I wish I had the ability to posi you.

[readmyname]

the fourth of July should not be a celebration of America. It should be a celebration of the revolutionary spirit that created America.

Agree 100 percent.

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Iskatehard]

Fuck. We have our shit together to a degree. I wish we were all united and shit, but thinking that that would work is delusional. Too many crazy people in the world who would try to get a foothold and take over. Countries may have their problems, but its the best way to do shit right now. It allows us to stay organize and deal with threats and crisis.

Factions always end up forming, even if we "united" all of humanity, different groups would form and take control, and they would essentially end up being the same as countries.

And I don't really see the big problem with countries. Saying that individual countries are stupid is like saying that separate basketball teams are stupid. They should all just form into one big happy basketball family. Fuck that shit. Competitions and conflict kick ass, it would be boring as fuck if there were no desire to be the best team, to be better than everyone else. And I don't see anything bad that can come with trying to make the USA the best country in the world.

Yeah, even if we were united as a whole, there'd still be problems and factions and shit.. But at the same time, they'd be much easier to deal with when we act as a whole. Not to mention the problems that cause concern to humanity outside of the ones actually CREATED by humans themselves would be approached and solved much easier and in much less time. That would be good, if you ask me.

And I don't think the separate nations is similar to the separate teams in the NBA or something...

Mainly because they compete all in good fun, and at the end of the day they all walk away from it. They compete for score, something that doesn't matter outside the game. There are no long lasting effects to people not involved initially. And shit, when two countries "compete", they don't do it with a ball and hoop, they do it with guns and explosives.

Everybody doesn't get together at the end of a war and shake hands and say "good game". People lay around dead and cities are reduced to complete mess.. And that stands true for both sides, regardless of who wins. When people are at war, nobody is saying "Fuck yeah, this isn't boring! Conflict kicks ass!"

I'd honestly be willing to bet that more likely than not, the fall of humans will be the product of our own doing If we were united, we wouldn't be blowing each other up and escalating to the insane point of dropping nuclear weapons that can kill millions of people on each other.

Really.. We'd last much longer as a whole, and there would be much, MUCH less suffering. You might consider that a little bit more boring than not.. But the excitement certainly doesn't make it worth it.

[Snake]

I didn't mean that war was awesome, I meant competition in the economic sense, and making ourselves the most advanced country with the best artists, doctors, creators, etc..

[Iskatehard]

I didn't mean that war was awesome, I meant competition in the economic sense, and making ourselves the most advanced country with the best artists, doctors, creators, etc..

Oh, werd, my bad. I fucked that up =\

And I see what you mean in it's somewhat a tool in a sense that it can push us to progress certain things faster and such..

But I wonder how much that matters in the overall scheme. I say this because I recently read an article by Kurt Vonnegut.. It was a piece about this city he was in while overseas in a world war.

The way he explained it was pretty powerful, I have to say. It was like a city built around art and fine creations of mankind. I believe he stated it was the most beautiful city our world has ever seen. And as the essay progressed.. He began to write in a much sadder sense.. As he talked about the US applying saturation bombing and in a matter of a night, completely destroying the beautiful place.

Art and the like is great.. But it seems war is the most important thing. We'll destroy art in the destroying of enemies. That's upsetting...

And of course it's always been a vital loss in war through history. The main reason we don't have arts from previous times to better understand the way of life people once had.. Is because it was destroyed in war... It's like.. War doesn't just destroy people.. But so many other important things that express humanity.


I know, I know, I'm rambling now. I just felt like mentioning that bit, I guess.. Really, that was one of the most powerful essays I believe I've really ever read... It's sad reading it and seeing how war will never exclude anything as "victim".

[salvemaster]

Oh, werd, my bad. I fucked that up =\

And I see what you mean in it's somewhat a tool in a sense that it can push us to progress certain things faster and such..

But I wonder how much that matters in the overall scheme. I say this because I recently read an article by Kurt Vonnegut.. It was a piece about this city he was in while overseas in a world war.

The way he explained it was pretty powerful, I have to say. It was like a city built around art and fine creations of mankind. I believe he stated it was the most beautiful city our world has ever seen. And as the essay progressed.. He began to write in a much sadder sense.. As he talked about the US applying saturation bombing and in a matter of a night, completely destroying the beautiful place.

Art and the like is great.. But it seems war is the most important thing. We'll destroy art in the destroying of enemies. That's upsetting...

And of course it's always been a vital loss in war through history. The main reason we don't have arts from previous times to better understand the way of life people once had.. Is because it was destroyed in war... It's like.. War doesn't just destroy people.. But so many other important things that express humanity.


I know, I know, I'm rambling now. I just felt like mentioning that bit, I guess.. Really, that was one of the most powerful essays I believe I've really ever read... It's sad reading it and seeing how war will never exclude anything as "victim".

God that's horrible.

You'd think the worst thing a man could do to another man would be to murder him... but to murder everything that he stood for as well... i don't even want to talk about that one.

[Iskatehard]

Yeah.. There are some weird things about it..

I'd almost be willing to say.. Like.. You know.. Kill me, because I'm going to die eventually on my own anyhow. I'm not worth anything in and of myself. The things I create and the things I do are so much more important than I am...

If you destroy what I make and what I do.. Then what does that leave me? What is there to my person other than my body and clothes? Sure, there is more.. But it's not reflected in anything any more..

Fuck.. Might seem odd, because life is worth so much.. But so is what comes from it..

You kill somebody and then destroy all that they did.. You really do erase them entirely.. Fuck

[Skateselect]

Yeah.. There are some weird things about it..

I'd almost be willing to say.. Like.. You know.. Kill me, because I'm going to die eventually on my own anyhow. I'm not worth anything in and of myself. The things I create and the things I do are so much more important than I am...

If you destroy what I make and what I do.. Then what does that leave me? What is there to my person other than my body and clothes? Sure, there is more.. But it's not reflected in anything any more..

Fuck.. Might seem odd, because life is worth so much.. But so is what comes from it..

You kill somebody and then destroy all that they did.. You really do erase them entirely.. Fuck
you'd have to kill everyone they knew, because the memory of them is still living on in that persons mind

[Iskatehard]

Eh, fuck it. Memory is only worth so much.. You can't really share it with others in the sense you could with things like art. Overtime memories fade and people get confused. 40 Years later, the memories of said person is only about 30% real, and the other 70% are just shit whoever remembering ended up just throwing in..

You know what I mean? After so long.. It's hard to tell what you really remember, and what you just imagine remembering.. If that makes sense.

But eh.. Art and the like are the closest things we have to really being remembered for a long period of time, I guess..